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Why Do Attendings Verbally Abuse Med Students?
Anthony Rudine -- I think it was Jerry Seinfeld who said something to the effect that it is just that little bit of arrogance in the medical community that we could all just do without. I have to agree.
I am not sure what your background is, whether or not you were raised around physicians, know physicians, or are one yourself, but it really doesn’t matter. I was not raised around any physicians, so perhaps my attitude towards the medical community is different that yours.
On my most recent rotation, where I will not use names, largely because I haven’t been graded yet, the arrogance was palpable. I have never in my life heard people speak to each other the way we students were spoken to by a few select physicians. Male or female, it makes no difference, the curse words and expletives and insults were rampant.
Now, some of you may expect this. I expected some of it myself. It wasn’t until I thought about the situation more fully that I realized how ridiculous it was to curse, scream, slam things, etc, at medical students.
First off, medical students are paying for their education. Yes, the public pays a large portion of the costs and fees, especially at a state school, but for the individual, like myself, who needs loans, the amount is substantial. Second, these physicians were once students themselves, although it seems that they have forgotten. I can find no valid reason why a self-respecting physician at an academic institution would speak this way to anyone, much less future colleagues.
I think that the very few physicians who I am talking about must have such a low self image and be so insecure that they must berate others. That is the only explanation. I have not noticed any correlation in intelligence of the cursers. There is nothing to explain why these doctors speak to us this way other than they are so afraid of life itself that they have no other option than to yell at those doing their best to help.
November 22, 2006 | Permalink
Comments
You can definitely learn swear words on the wards....
Posted by: | Nov 22, 2006 9:11:18 PM
Maladaptive coping abounds.
Posted by: Tom | Nov 23, 2006 3:58:15 PM
"patience is a virtue" remember? if they were to curse,scream etc who would suffer more? is them not you..so why should we bother if they were screamin or slammin things while giving orders etc?
it would be better to keep your cool..and just ignore..=)
Posted by: ;) | Nov 23, 2006 9:08:40 PM
I think it's because shit rolls downhill. I am a third year medical student and the first thing the MA said the first is; "This is like the army" meaning they use a ranking system. And the abusive goes down wards. To me is just a matter of do unto others kind of situation; where the people who are now the supervisors once got abused themselves. I do not mind it too much since I know it's nothing personal and for these people its standard procedure. What I do hate about is that sometimes you have to wonder "Is this person yelling at me and insulting me because I have done something wrong or because that's just what he does?" and then you don't know if you're being a good doctor or not. I think a bigger problem is the sexual harassment that I can do without.
Posted by: edward | Nov 25, 2006 7:08:01 PM
It's a power thing, no doubt. Makes people in power situations feel good and convinces them more of their power when they are able to abuse a helpless party without consequence.
Hard to ignore, I know. Hang in there... maybe it's just psychiatrists...
Posted by: jocelyn | Nov 25, 2006 11:45:01 PM
So, why are medical students so thin-skinned?
Posted by: Jared Solomon | Nov 27, 2006 7:08:30 PM
If you got your sh*t together and quit f***ing around you wouldn't get cursed at so much.
/poke ;)
Posted by: scalpel | Nov 28, 2006 11:59:38 AM
Anthony, it's too bad you are having such an experience. I don't know if these are residents or attendings who are acting like this, but you're right, such behavior is unacceptable. On a personal note, I always think back to what it was like to be a medical student when things get choppy. Good luck in the rest of your career and don't let this get you down. Whether its the medical field or somewhere else, you'll always find people without tact.
Posted by: Naveen | Nov 28, 2006 4:43:15 PM
I think people who are abusing towards others were similarly abused in their training. Fortunately this type of attitude is dying out, but seems to perservere in some parts of the country. I'm lucky enough to be in the Midwest where this is essentially now taboo and any attending who were to act like this would soon be out of the program. It's unfortunate that this persists, but if we--the new generation of physician--recognize it and don't replicate it then medical training and practice will be all the better.
Posted by: Brandon | Nov 28, 2006 4:53:31 PM
I'm a fourth year now; it's been better since my letters of rec and grades have already gone out, so I don't really give a shit what anyone thinks on some meaningless "mandatory" rotation. Relationships with attendings can be tenuous; either they ignore you or blame you for their problems which most of the time you have no control over or are not even cognizant of; half the time you get people who are professional and want to teach. take it all in stride.
As we work in this slave labor system where you pay them to work your butt off for a few years so they can stroll in and make quick decisions based on your work, keep in mind that one day when these attendings will be decrepit, old, and sick you might be the attending rounding on them. i find that it's not really the attendings i've had problems with, but residents who are somewhere in the middle who get pressured by the attending and then pass it on to you. people who don't have anyone to answer to (i.e. attendings) are more laid back/apathetic than the pressured residents.
Posted by: DVPMD | Nov 28, 2006 4:59:43 PM
ah, but what about when the militarism comes down to "you better start showing me more respect or i'll fail you!"?
Posted by: julie | Nov 28, 2006 5:00:27 PM
I was once called a mental midget, and america's answer to morrons, by a physician I was shadowing. This was in my masters degree before I got into Med school. He just expected a lot of me, and I just dealt with it. So, in conclusion just ignore them or you can kill them with kindness. (I am partial to ignoring them)
Posted by: Gary | Nov 28, 2006 5:00:38 PM
let it be and don't let them get to you. In the end it will all pay off. Good luck in becoming a sucessful and caring Doctor
Posted by: | Nov 28, 2006 6:04:32 PM
They do it because they can. We have no recourse, they essentially hold our futures in their hands. I find it very unprofessional and immature but there is not much you can do about it. I agree with one of the posts, I think they are either very miserable or lacking self confidence themselves. Whatever reason they hide behind it is very discourteous and I have little respect for the temper tantrums of a 2 year old in a white coat.
Posted by: CRE | Nov 28, 2006 6:05:42 PM
Attending meltdown is taboo in the midwest? First I've heard about it.
Posted by: Jeff | Nov 28, 2006 6:36:16 PM
anthony, dont feel bad. i had worse of the worse than your experience. because i was a female med student. in fact i am an attractive slim girl with long hair (hey i have the highest step scores in my school..i graduated number one from my school..i have brains too) i had attendings asked me to sleep with them.....explicit....just like that!! when i scrubbed in during general surgery rotation, several residents constantly told me to "suck here" when i was holding the suction aspiration. i had male attending told me that i got good evaluation is because i am attractive depite i passed all my exams and quizs with 100%. they dont care how many hours and how hard i worked each single freaking day. in addition to these devil horny attendings and residents, i even was "abused" by nurses and OR tech. because they think med students are the lowest rank in this medical world. one day, when i was scrubbing in during plastic surgery rotation, this OR female tech wouldn't gown me....after i waited about 20 minutes....i was standing in the operation room with both my arms up like a fool......she finally came over and gown me, gloved me and said "i just dont like you" what did i do????? nothing but being a student. about cursing??? that is just daily routine. i had an attending said to me "what the f--k you think you are doing???" anyway, i can go on and on and even write a book about this dark dark dirty harsh path we as med students have to put up with in order to be a resident!!!! i swore to myself during each single of my rotation that i will never cry and never let them put me down no matter how bad the situation was!! and i DID it. now i am a 1st year ENT head and neck surgery resident and i was offered multiple residency spots in OB and in internal med and family med by those attendings who really noticed my talent.....i was offered my current residency spot 3 months before i graduated from med school and before i even passed my step 2. the point is, it is so unfair the way they treat us but you will have to bite your tongue and try your best to ignore them!! i swear to myself that i will never turn into one of those bad abusive attending. now i treat all my med students with smile, kindness and i teach them without expecting them to know the answers. i dont let them go through any of those shit i have gone through. goodluck to you, you can write me and vent to me if you want. i understand how you feel 200%. and i have been there and done all that!!!!!!
Posted by: jennifer | Nov 28, 2006 6:39:55 PM
Like Callie said on Grey's Anatomy, doctors are "seventeen year olds with scalpels." Many of these doctors went to high school, then college, then med school, then residency and now they are attendings. They never had the chance to mature socially. Moreover, the training is such that it wears and tears you down, so that you lose any sense of empathy you may have had at some point in the past. I agree with Jocelyn above; it is a power thing. I believe that the system is broken; this is the practice of medicine, and there is no place for abusiveness toward others. This is supposed to be a caring profession and should not be compared with the military; our goals are opposite. I find it helpful to identify those very few attendings who have the self awareness and confidence to treat their patients AND their students/interns/residents with respect and COMPASSION. These are role models; the rest do not deserve my respect. As an intern, I have found it refreshing to treat attending physicians the way they treat me, and to challenge their lack of respect. By the way, nowhere has it been proven that abusive language and intimidation make for a better learning experience.
Posted by: Lauren | Nov 28, 2006 6:43:26 PM
I just wanted to add a simple reminder to all of you current medical students. I am a nursing student that has begun rotations this semester and as bad as you guys have it (I've seen first hand), remember we get it pretty bad too....even from other students....usually of the male physician in training persuasion. I, much like my colleagues choose to ignore as well....we all have to work together, so it's nice to hear the compassion I have found in the words of medical students posting here. And I would have to say....I've learned many different ways to describe how a person can copulate with their own family members in our hospital wards.
Posted by: Kelli | Nov 28, 2006 7:48:24 PM
I dont think getting anyone's "s***t together has anything to do with the verbal abuse that is rampant among attending physicians. I have seen some of the top medical students verbally shredded by inhumane attendings. But someone said it perfectly when they said that these attendings will get old and decrepid and lo and behold, they will be on the receiving end. So no need to let it get to you, ignore them because YOU and only you are the only one who decides who upset you.
Posted by: sedonte | Nov 28, 2006 8:27:38 PM
Listen.... unless you are an American studying medicine abroad you have nothnig, yes nothing to cry about because in the States there is always the lawyer factor. When you study abroad, where the same horror stories occur but usually in a foreign language, you have absolutely no one to hold on to for support except for another med student with you. Dont cry until you do a general surgery rotation in Tijuana. There everyone is absolutely arrogant and jealous at the same time because they knew that if I wanted to eat at Mc Donalds in San Diego I could do it and they were stuck there. Believe me, not fun staying for 36 hour call every 2nd day and getting yelled at by not just the attendings, who make fun of the way you attempt to communicate with them and then there are the residents, nurses. All of them ridiculizing you because you dont have a mexican accent. Think about that.
Posted by: Angel | Nov 28, 2006 8:38:15 PM
I am still torn about my experience with a particular attending who seemed to have the uncanny ability to see right down into the bottom of my soul and wreak havoc. On the one hand I felt he often went too far in berating me and my teammates. On the other hand, I have been just about unshakable since I completed that rotation with an "A" (and got a tremendous letter of recommendation to boot). It's the old adage - things that don't kill us make us stronger.
That said, I don't intend to use those tactics when I begin to teach medical students.
Hang in there!
Posted by: chip | Nov 28, 2006 8:47:45 PM
Hi there Anthony,
I understand you perfectly. When I was in medical school, I had a few attending physicians, but mostly residents, who behaved in such an unprofessional manner. At first, you wish they ceased to exist that very instant, just to put it very succinctly, because what you wish for them is a lot worse and ugly to describe. Nevertheless, only you know whether you are doing things right or not, and if you are doing them right, that is enough reason for you to disregard any offensive behavior towards you from anyone above you in the hierarchy.
It is the tendency of mediocre people to behave in such way to justify or to compensate for their inadequacies. Instead, they should recognize their flaws and learn from others to improve as human beings and physicians as well.
In the end, if your performance is outstanding, no one will be able to dispute it, it will shine through. Not even those who feel threaten by you will be able opaque your work.
There are always a few who feel so insecure about themselves that they need to canalize their fears by inflicting insults and disrespectful behavior on to others in order to feel good. Anyhow, they will always respect you if you are good. Some of them do it just to give you that little extra push you need because they know you can do better.
My advice, do your best and you will never have anything to regret. Remember, it is about you, not about them. Good Luck!
I would like to conclude by stating the following; I think that scalpel must be one of these mediocre individuals since his or her advice contains neither a constructive critic nor a positive message for improvement, and that is what separates the intellectuals from the mediocre. Remember, being a doctor of medicine does not place you above anyone in this world, it gives you the noble knowledge to humbly serve and aide others. And that is the most noble attribute anyone can posses.
Mr. Scalpel, you do not deserve to be called a true DOCTOR. You should try to get educated and try not to use foul language, unless you want to us it with your mediocre equals, when advising someone about something as serious as Anthony’s career. Since you do not know him, the best you could do is be objective. Your advice is based on an assumption that could be wrong, and that, my ignorant friend, is called prejudice based on ignorance, pardon the redundancy.
Best of luck to you Anthony
Dr. Rafael Feliz
Posted by: Rafael | Nov 28, 2006 8:48:22 PM
the funny thing i've noticed is not as much negativity from attendings as from residents, interns and even other students. it seems like the cool thing to do is bitch constantly about how long the hours are, how shitty patients are (f---g crackhead lowlifes, coming here and expecting us to help them!) and how everyone should always want to go home early and get into a a field with the shortest hours and biggest paycheck or else they are big fat gunners. like lauren said, many of them are stunted emotionally and isolated in a world they might not even want to be a part of, and it obviously f--ks with their heads.
luckily most of the attendings i've had are either done with those years or never had them because their generation just had a different perspective on what medicine as a calling means. they are kind, reasonable and love to teach without resorting to insults. when i'm given a hard time for choosing to enjoy my time instead of being miserable, it's the attendings that help me see that loving what you do in life makes all the difference in how you relate to others.
Posted by: my alias | Nov 28, 2006 9:56:54 PM
I am a 55yo physician; it was the same when I went through my IM residency. I experienced the exact same mental torture that present day students talk about.
My sister is a PA; exact same treatment while she was in her undergrad training, but the abusers were PA instructors. Arrogant instructors and attendings who are enthralled in the use of their power over weaker beings. It is really a very very sad commentary on the personality types who go into medicine
in the first place. People who get off on hurting others; I have seen it over and over and over again amongst my peers. Some of it is self-selection;
ie: the types who gravitate toward teaching are the types who also like to have the power; similar to the types who gravitate toward becoming a police officer;
they want to be in charge and show the "smaller beings"
in the room that they are in charge.
I think we need a psychologist to come into the discussion and give us a better understanding of the
reasons behind this phenomena; I slept through my psych
elective and never looked back.
Posted by: gray | Nov 29, 2006 9:35:53 AM
I wonder if this is more common in the US? I'm a 3rd year in Canada, and I've found the staff and residents to be generally nice people with a genuine interest in teaching us. Maybe being nice is just Canadian, Eh?
Posted by: Murray Yazer | Nov 29, 2006 10:05:48 AM
I am a medstudent and I perfectly know what an athority abuse is,I live it few months ago, by one of my tutors. when I anilize why he act that way, I realize that he has a poor selfsteem and actually the his verbal abuse towards me was stronger than to the rest of my companions because he has a crush on me, but it was the dummiest way to express it. Now I realize that in this career we live with thousands of frustrations and it is really difficult for few to pass over them, and the way they espress it is "proctecting" them selves of being vulnerable by athority and it is what take them to abuse of it and they abuse to the most "vunerable", that are students.
Posted by: MARCH | Nov 29, 2006 10:20:27 AM
Hi I am from the UK and although there are few meanies out there whose aim in life is to make the most placid and caring of medical students a nervous wreck, I have found sometimes a point to this humiliation. And this is placing those peoples feet firmly on the ground that have started to drift. ie. those students who rip the piss out of everything, don't attend lectures, spend as little time on the ward as possible but come up trumps at exam time.Much to my frustration.It is for those few that it is beneficial and for the rest well I have suffered the wrath of the derogatory comments and you just cannot understand. I guess you have to remember that we don't know everything and never will. I just figure now that in someone's eyes I will never be right, so as long as I am doing what I think is right then I cannot go wrong.
Posted by: Em | Nov 29, 2006 11:26:27 AM
Some of these "abusers" will say they are just passing on the "tough love" they received in training, kind of like in the military or even when pledging a fraternity or sorority. I think it's total BS. People like to argue that when you are embarrassed on something you will learn it better, and perhaps that is true to a certain extent, but what these same people don't realize is that an unpleasant learning environment makes people bitter toward medical education and the medical field. By the time they get to the point that they are encountering the abuse every day, they are far too deep into their education, and often too indebted financially, to easily turn away and choose another path. Some doctors out there are doing their jobs but not really liking the work despite what they may say, and why? In many cases, to pay off those massive debts which med school has no business causing in the first place. In Denmark medical education is completely paid for by the government...and in Denmark, even interns and residents don't work more than 37 hours a week, and attendings don't come in before 8 am.
If those attendings want to pass on "tough love", they should first try being $200,000 in debt like many of today's students.
Posted by: David | Nov 29, 2006 11:37:47 AM
This is true and it happens almost everywere but there is way to know the difference to which physicians, attendings, residents, interns or medstudents you are dealing with.
Arrogance and verbal abuse are a sigh of insecurity. i.e. When someone is insecure about their knowledge or themselves they express it trying to humiliate other so they can feel superior. They are just letting you know: "I am not your friend I have a higher rank than you". They just want you to think that they are the supreme beings and that they know more than you.
In the other hand, real knowledge is humble and should be expressed through a genuine desire to help other achieve excellence. This should be the thoughts of every physician, attending, resident, intern and medstudent who love the profession of medicine.
Best wishes;
Dr. Israel C. Salguero
Posted by: Caleb | Nov 29, 2006 12:09:42 PM
Hello colleagues, I’ve read your comments and I want to share some of my personal experience. I graduated 18 months ago in Caracas, Venezuela. The situation here is quite the same and you receive abuse from everybody; literally, the med student is the door mat, and doesn’t deserve being treated like a person. That said, my explanation is very simple: human beings are capable of good and of evil, its just the human nature and Medicine World isn’t an exception. In fact, Medical environment is where you will find the most amount of perverted folks, since it’s a career where you deal with all the dark aspects of the people as well as the bright ones. It’s a job of extreme situations. Vanity, power, frustration, insecurity, rage, all weigh in the equation at all levels. So each and every person abuses for different reasons. My advice is this: TAKE FECES FROM NO ONE. I respect the rank system and I’m even grateful for those teachers that pushed me harder, but I never thanked the ones that made me feel disrespected or humiliated. I fought several fights throughout my career and I’m proud to say I won them all, of course I lost a lot of blood in the process, and yet, I graduated 1st in my class Magnacumlaude. Here are my tips Anthony: 1- Be excellent at what you do 2-Be respectful yet blunt, that will set the example and that will earn you the respect of everybody (even the abuser will feel diminished in the face of a student that shows the manners that he lacks) 3- When disrespected, DO NOT BE QUIET, tell the attending in private and in a very graceful way that you don’t appreciate being treated that way, he may laugh at you, he may not. The next step is to group with your peers, NUMERIC SUPERIORITY MY FRIEND IS KEY, but is you are fighting alone you have a real problem 4- If things get ugly, convey the idea THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO GO AS FAR AS IT TAKES TO BE RESPECTED, that will make a lot of abusers to stand down, mainly because the abusers are cowards in their nature and no one wants to get in trouble with an A student… remember EVERYONE HAS A BOSS, use the ranks to your favor, play dirty winning the favor of higher ranking physicians 5-never rule out the ignoring technique, specially when you have little to loose, don’t fight just for the fun of it. Finally, reflect on how many of your partners complain? How many like being treated like that? How many will say later on, this teacher was great right? Although extreme?, How many are swallowing their dignity, sucking up to the abuser?, You can in the majority of cases identify which peers of yours will become decadent attending. Identify those, and mark a distance. Mr. Scalpel, I really feel sorry for you, your wife probably beats you around, and you surely are one of those suck up students, walking around arrogantly. I foresee that you will end up friendless and surrounded by hypocrites, good luck with that Dr. Romano.
Dr. Guillermo Garrido
Posted by: Dr. Guillermo Garrido | Nov 29, 2006 1:45:00 PM
i say suck it up and it'll be a good laugh in a couple years. Somehow it makes u get ur shit toether.
Stop whining and and keep ur cool
Posted by: trini girl | Nov 29, 2006 3:23:10 PM
Hi,
I am quite disappointed by some of the comments. I think the doctors pride is in his knowledge that he is able to give someone another life. For them its a challenge of their Brains.
Thats what brings so much energy and innovation within oneself. And thats what you live for.
Thats the reason if I was a doctor I would for SURE be a Child Specialist. But I was not that smart.
Posted by: nirav vallabh | Nov 29, 2006 3:26:37 PM
One should not abuse anyone. That said, let us examine the neuroscience of single trial learning...Adrenaline pumped into the system increases the probability that a memory will be made. Interestingly, people seldom forget things that traumatized them. So being made a fool of may in fact burn a memory in single trial. However, it remains to be seen whether the memory is of the abusive incident or of the teaching point... my guess is that the jury is still out on this and the outcome may be different for different people... My $.02. Doc Rox
Posted by: Dr Roxanne Lewis | Nov 29, 2006 4:39:49 PM
Some of you have articulated the military strategy of thinking under fire. Drill instructors use this technique wildly, and for purpose. One thing to remember that when you are being scrutinized by someone who has only words to correct, sometimes an explentive could be used for effect, or ignorance.
In the world beyond school and residency you might learn that there are going to be those who are going to scrutinize you a little bit more harshly by taking your assets or trying to take more with removal of certification.
Overall try not to let this "method" of correction, deflection, or mere ignorance get you down. You might find that there might be some of this type of counseling from future patients.
Posted by: Juan D.Valdez | Nov 29, 2006 4:48:21 PM
personal comments apart, students need stimulation to study. whether the student pays the fees or not is immaterial. he is in the college to learn and it is the job of the teacher to drill the facts in the head of the student. it is the student who will treat the teacher when teacher is old and unable to treat himself.
Posted by: vivek gharpure | Nov 29, 2006 4:54:53 PM
Okay, this really scares me. I'm a PA student, going to start rotations in July. I can pretty much guarantee that the PA students are lower in rank than the med students. The thing is, I'm not sure I could stand idly by while being cursed at and berated. I know I am intelligent, I know I am attractive, and I have worked my a*s off to get where I am. I would never stoop to their level and scream and curse back at them, but I might a) walk out, or b) calmly give them a piece of my mind and tell them that no one deserves to be spoken to in such a way, and they need to get some help. I don't care who they are, I just cannot see myself putting up with that. I'm too old, I'm married with kids, I've been through too much in my life. There was a reason I didn't join the marines. I just don't have the personality, patience or time to take much crap from others: subordinates, equals or superiors. So I guess I will probably fail my rotations, because I will not sell my dignity for a good grade! IMHO, they all need to grow the heck up. There is absolutely no excuse for treating another human being like that unless you have a psychiatric disorder and can't help yourself, in which case you need psychotropic medication. I respectfully disagree with all of you on here who say this is acceptable. I don't care how much experience you have, or what you've been through. The very nature of our profession (healthcare) contradicts this kind of behavior. You are not fit to treat anyone, nor teach in a professional capacity, if you can't control your mouth and treat others with respect. I don't care if you're the Surgeon General of the US. And I am horrified at the comment about how some residents speak of patients as crackheads and not deserving treatment. Who made them God and put them in a position to judge others?? Unbelievable, and really quite scary!!
Posted by: Talia | Nov 29, 2006 6:56:33 PM
I understand the tough love methods of teaching and trying to get students to work under pressure, but I think personal insults and explicatives are not necessary. There are much better ways to go about critically teaching someone. In response to Gray, I am currently a PA student and our professors definately put us down more than encourage us. They use scare tactics and negativity. Personally, I have lost a lot of respect for my faculty and they are not helping me learn, they are deterring me from learning their methods and just studying and learning my own. I know I may encounter the same thing on rotations and while I just deal with it now, its sad that this is students whether doctors or PA's are taught medicine.
Posted by: HP | Nov 29, 2006 7:08:50 PM
There is a lot of deadwood in teaching hospitals; some of my husband's most abusive attendings were those too hidebound and nasty to ever hack it in private practice. Some unsolicited advice: don't take a residency where you went to medical school, and don't take an attending position where you do your residency. The deadwood types will always see you as below them in the food chain and they NEVER stop trying to pimp. Good luck to you. I promise that it does get better eventually.
Posted by: MD's wife | Nov 29, 2006 7:17:43 PM
my friend, i must agree with that
i really tought that just happened here (mexico) but now i realized it happen's everywhere, and it really sux, cuz even nurses treat's us like we were some kinda shit or i dunno..
lol
thanks a lot for your informattion..
you really make me smile (:
and make me realized what happened in other places too
!
keep it real
irma espino
mexico
Posted by: irma espino | Nov 29, 2006 8:20:46 PM
Dr. Feliz has said it so well, I will only say I agree with him. The doctor with bad teachings skills become doctors with like practices. I have had many instructors in skills of communicating that I can say were excellent. I have doctorates in two other discipilines, so I can speak to the issue with some knowledge. I have shopped around until I found a Doctor who is willing to be a person who is helpful, friendly, and lives on terra firma.
Posted by: R. D. Holland | Nov 29, 2006 8:27:38 PM
hi, im a medstudent in dominican republic, who thought that this only happened here!
i've experienced this first hand!
and yes it's wrong, but we cant change them! everyone has their problems and background.
so... what is best to learn from this all?
1) if disrespected by a superior, speak to them directly, express yourself (if the person is approachable) if not, read Dr. Guillermo Garrido's post, and remember, maybe.. just maybe, you were the tip of the iceberg. The world does not revolve around you so try to keep your head up high you are There to learn
2) it can sometimes be emotionally draining, but the MAIN thing is, once you have a higher rank, NEVER DO IT TO OTHERS, that way WE ARE the ones who actually change this horrible pattern of super-egos and awkward behavior in the institutions where intellectual stimulation should be the main course of each day
Posted by: gavicapo | Nov 29, 2006 8:29:52 PM
I think med school is the way it is because, well, there just isn't room for error... and you have to get that drilled into your head. You can't be right 99% of the time. It has to be 100%. It's kinda like the army or something in that regard, like, they break you down and then fill the void with programming of a soldier.
Same deal in med school: they break you down, to fill the void with the programming of a doctor (that this IS life or death).
I don't think doctors would be effective doctors without the residency experience, much in the way soldiers aren't soldiers without the psychological programming of a "boot camp" type experience.
Posted by: | Nov 29, 2006 9:51:02 PM
Primum non nocere: "First, do no harm."
Verbal abuse is verbal abuse. Period.
Posted by: | Nov 30, 2006 12:23:04 AM
Try to remember that one day they'll be anaesthetised on the table and you'll be weilding the scalpel...
I think junior doctors often snap at medical students because effectively teaching adds to their already considerable/excessive workload. We need to realise that medical students are a huge asset; you have terrific examination skills, are keen to learn practical techniques and have more time to spend with patients, taking histories and monitoring their progress. My final-year student was invaluable during my first term of Internship. If the workload was delegated to medical students (under supervision) where appropriate, it contributes to their learning and ward experience and also creates more time for ward-based teaching.
Medical students should not have to endure a trial by fire just because their attendings did before they were qualified. You don't have long to go before your own residency, so keep this experience in mind after you qualify. Choose a teaching hospital for your first year/s out where you were treated with respect.
Posted by: Kath | Nov 30, 2006 1:29:38 AM
just want to say , as a mature medical student, it isnt just in medicine that those deemed to be in 'power' belittle those without. it happens through all areas of life. And a common thread I have discovered is that you learn less from those who belittle you and that's probably because they know less in the first place. Think about it, if someone snaps at you for something (questioning them, asking advice) it's probably because they don't want to look inferior by not knowing the answer. The most I have ever learned is from post-grads who are approachable because they WANT to share their knowledge and don't fear having to say they DON'T KNOW.
My advice is taking comfort in knowing that these people are not comfortable with our current knowledge, nor with their own. Take note, and make sure that we all don't repeat the cycle in 10 years....
Positive thoughts!
Posted by: Fiona Black | Nov 30, 2006 6:00:51 AM
as an older student finishing his training as a paramedic with an application in for medical school next fall I think sometimes its a test of how bad you want it, kind of like basic training in the military I tend to turn off an arrogant preceptor but I always know no one will deter me from the practice of emergency medicine, Bring it on it just amkes me want to be better and know I can handle any streeful situation and get my patient to the best outcome. with the holidays God Bless us one and all
Posted by: Ray Eaton | Nov 30, 2006 7:49:35 AM
In sociology there is an idea of "initiation rituals" that are performed on individuals as a perquisite to joining a social group. This can be the group of adults initiating a child into puberty. It can be a fraternity hazing pledges. It can be "weeder" classes in engineering or sciences that knock out 50% of the freshmen. It can be a PhD slogging through her thesis defense and tenure. It probably includes medical students being abused by attendings.
That is probably the reason, but like hazing in fraternities, it begs the question of efficacy and ethics. The argument that "lives are on the line" doesn't cut it as there are other professions where this is so that handle "initiation" differently and more compassionately.
Posted by: MM | Nov 30, 2006 11:35:40 AM
I don't know why anyone would need to stoop to swearing or abuse to make med students aware of their deficiencies. My former chief of medicine could reduce students to jelly with the lift of an eyebrow.
Posted by: Dr. Bean | Nov 30, 2006 1:55:21 PM
I think the physician will treat his/her students or juniors the way he/she was treated during the years of learning. Past experience do affect one person alot!!
That's some of my observation after more than 1 year of clerkship...:)
Posted by: CHLee | Dec 1, 2006 8:36:16 AM
The Student Teacher relationship is an area which seems similar allover where humanbeings are to be :in all aspects of learning (sports ,comedy theater ,arts...so medicine is not an exception ).Acceped enough this relation take simillar forms of what we call Doctor-patieint relation .Some with a parrent attiude some are imposing their APOSTOLIC ZEAL .For any medical student to make it easy for himself :I can put my advise in these points:
1-remmember always that your teacher have something to give :and you need it.
2-dont forget that your proffessor is a human with all the emotions wich could be veiling a hidden agenda (you are not concern by that and an insult is an insult to him)
3- Dont think about the wording used to insult you but try ro rememer the cause of that ( or the topic of the lecture or round...).
4- do not repeat the things which had been done to you (if you think it was bad ) to your students when you are the prof.
.....Last consider what is called proffesional jeleously is quiet common :and the nurses will have the only chance to be (on your head) when you are student or when they catch your mistakes during your internship
Posted by: Dr Adam | Dec 1, 2006 11:16:23 PM
It's incredible the amount of verbal abuse flying around on from Consultants to students. I just graduated from the University of Nigeria some 4 mths ago and i can count the number of times i was called Goat. I've equally seen a number of my class girls break down and cry under such verbal attacks.
But sometimes i wonder who pioneered this tradition that has been handed down to our generation.
Other times i philosophize that the doctors that abuse probably were abused during their stay in med school.
Despite this they have no justification. Students pay their fees to be taught not abused. And if any would be student had sufficient medical knowledge to please his superiors then he/she won't be in a tutelage position. He'll be the teacher or professor.
Posted by: Sardine | Dec 2, 2006 4:06:56 AM
So much for "Do no harm."
Kindness is the ultimate wisdom.
Posted by: Bob Kocembo | Dec 2, 2006 10:40:26 AM
Well it is very ridiculus that a physician in an institute of teaching and learning would stoop to a low life way of communicating. You are in medical school to be trained and to soak up knowledge. I believe the attending physicians or residents that speak to medical students in such a degrading way should be yanked from the teaching in the school. I guess they must be so insecure and new to power in the teaching facility that they deem it better to intimidate than to use their brain and teach in a stimulating way....How lazy and unprofessional of them to teach in such an intimidating way.....If I was them I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that I had talked to someone that way. They are abusive people and I don't see how they could be much different when they converse with patients....How can they treat students in one way and have any hope of being a caring physician. They aren't even caring towards their on future peers.....very sad....You hang in there and do and act the respectful way you should. Don't get on their level.....Stay on the upper level.....Eventually you will be rewarded by a peaceful, existence......Remember, what goes around comes around.....Eventually they will reap what they have sewn.........vr
Posted by: vonna | Dec 2, 2006 6:32:12 PM
Personally, as a medical student, my take on this is that those doctors who choose to be verbally nasty and rude are operating under the 'old school' mentality of medicine. For some strange and insane reason,they think that such treatment towards other aspiring future doctors will produce better doctors who can handle the stress. I think its time for the 'old school' doctors with their old school mentality to retire and allow the 'new school' and younger generation of doctors who are caring, respectful and well mannered to take the lead! It time for change! Wouldn't you agree?
Posted by: Donna | Dec 3, 2006 5:32:50 PM
I agree with Anthony i-e the only explanation for verbal abuse is the low self image and insecurity of the attending and/or the resident.
Posted by: Afrasyab Khan | Dec 5, 2006 8:30:55 AM
I'm used to getting abuse from the nursing staff more than anything...they're the ones I fear the most. I don't know why, but in my very busy teaching hospital, there are very few nurses I've met who have been helpful and pleasant. A lot tend to tar all medical students with the same brush. They think that we are all immature and arrogant. I've lost count of the number of times nurses have shouted at me for no reason other than I happen to the only med student on the ward they can scapegoat. (As it so happens, I am a mature medical student who looks really young for my age..!)
Posted by: falx cerebri UK | Dec 6, 2006 3:24:23 PM
I was discussing the issue of pain, humiliation and fear as a teaching technique in med school with a group of young people when one of them said. "If someone believes that this is a useful technique that can create positive changes in a student, how is that individual practicing medicine with patients?"
Posted by: Deirdre | Dec 18, 2006 1:03:52 PM
In some physicians it reflects lack of maturity,in some inability to realize the beauty of atoms and molecules of life.For some a sort of way to ontrol students and show their supermacy.Some times it is a vicious cycle of how they were treated as students.But finally afterall all physicians are also humanbeings-most of the time they ignore that.
Posted by: Venkat | Feb 1, 2007 5:37:31 AM
