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What Makes a Bad Medical Student?
Anna Burkhead -- Residents on “core” services such as Internal Medicine, Surgery, and OB/GYN work with a lot of medical students. Since their schedules don’t always entirely line up with students’ schedules, they may work with a new student as often as every 1-2 weeks, or as long as a month, for every year of their residency.
That’s a lot of medical students! And as much as I would like to believe that all of the students are stellar in knowledge, dedication, and attitude, I know it is not true.
I would venture to guess that most of the medical students reading this entry have been told by a resident or attending at some point that they are “good” students, or that their work has been “excellent”, or their write-ups “outstanding”. It’s easy to praise someone to their face. It’s not as easy to tell them they’re doing a bad job. Therefore, if you’re a “bad” medical student, you may not know it until you get your evaluations back. And at that point, it’s too late to change.
(At this point you may be asking yourself, “If I’ve never received any true positive feedback face-to-face, does that mean the residents have only negative feedback for me, and that I’m a ‘bad’ medical student?” Hmmmm….)
I’ve asked a few residents to give me a few tips, and I’ve compiled a list of things that make a medical student “bad”:
-#1 overall = BAD ATTITUDE. If you balk when your intern asks you to write the note on your patient for that day, or if you repeatedly say no to scrubbing in on late afternoon OR cases, you may be a bad medical student.
-Disappearing for extended periods, multiple times per day, to read or nap or goof around. I’m not saying you need to be married to your team, but make them aware you’re available and willing to help.
-Not appearing interested. Even if you detest surgery, or if you’d rather poke yourself with a MRSA-flavored fork than interview a manic patient, try to make a conscious effort to look engrossed. This may be as simple as altering your resting facial expression.
-Correcting your resident on rounds, or its extreme variant, “The Reverse Pimp”. Some medical students get so bent out of shape over being asked difficult “pimp” questions that they decide to try the “taste of your own medicine” routine. If you ask your resident or attending a question that is fact-based, a picky detail, or something that you’d find in a long paragraph of your basic science book, and you don’t ask it in a curious “I’m asking because I don’t know” manner, you may be a Reverse Pimper. Steer clear.
The above are just a few characteristics of “bad” medical students; there are countless others. Take a glance at the column “How May I Help You?” and think of the opposite.
My last point is this: even if you’re not the smartest 3rd year ever to don a short white coat, never fear. Not knowing answers does not make you a bad medical student. Attitude and work ethic count for a lot!
(Disclaimer: In no way am I claiming to be the polar opposite of a “bad” medical student, that is, a “perfect” medical student. Just sharing observations and solicited advice :) )
March 15, 2008 in Anna Burkhead | Permalink
Comments
Nice way to know how bad you are as a medical student.But good thing is to rectify and become a good student.
Posted by: vanessa | Mar 15, 2008 7:41:49 AM
Great tips! I don't know if residents would consider this to be "bad," but one of my pet peeves is the eternal suck up. You know, that student who has to go out of their way to kiss the resident and attending's butt, at any cost? A little kissing up is good, but licking their butt is not! :)
Posted by: Kendra | Mar 15, 2008 7:52:01 AM
Nice list, Anna
My addition to the 'how to be a bad student' list is the swooper. I've heard that residents and attendings both readily recognize when one medical student on the team moves in to comment on another student's case. Don't do it in public. If you have the urge to make a recommendation and no one else makes it on rounds, make a mental note and bring it up to your peer in private. That way (1) you're not a show-off, (2) you might actually teach your colleague something, (3) the patient might receive better care, and (4) your classmate is more likely to come to your aid in the future.
Life on the wards is too stressful at its baseline. There's no need for students to up the ante.
Posted by: Thomas Robey | Mar 15, 2008 1:35:39 PM
Know your patients. Get to the hospital before rounds and make friends with the overnite nursing staff. They can provide essential info about anything that may have happened with a patient during the night. Also, know all drainage outputs and be able to describe the drainage. Take your own vitals. Never trust nursing station vital sign clipboards. It is hard to believe that so many patients could be taking 18 respirations per minute while laying quietly in bed (unless they have a PE)
Posted by: G | Mar 18, 2008 2:54:33 PM
Some schools apparently think it's OK for medical students to wear long coats. Where I'm from, you'd get sent home as a student wearing a long coat. Big no-no! Even worse, no coat at all... Med students need to know their place. I sure did.
Posted by: Brett | Mar 18, 2008 2:55:37 PM
Bad students:
Copy on exams.
Use old exams to study for classes
Competive attitude with collegues
Don't read and think they know everything.
Put collegues on the spot for them to shine.
Don't put their interest. Don't search for things they don't know.
Posted by: Ja | Mar 18, 2008 2:56:01 PM
You can be a horrible medical student and get good evals, like I did. I have not been taught a thing in my third year, but I am always interested in learning and wanting to learn.. I am there usually, I did get in trouble once for leaving the team even though we hadn't had a patient on the service for 3 weeks. To get good evals is to act interested and ask for feedback not from just anyone, but find a resident that you know will not lie to you. Attendings usually have no knowledge of who you are, so I don't particularly worry about attendings, except to make the residents look good by answering their few questions with some type of knowledge.
Posted by: jc | Mar 18, 2008 3:13:14 PM
this is why all students should strive to go into radiology...
Posted by: Vdawg | Mar 18, 2008 3:13:20 PM
this entire thing is predicated on being a good or bad medical student being dependent on the relationship with the residents you're working with. while relevant for that discussion (and assuming an acceptance of a hierarchy w/ little demonstrated efficacy), a discussion of what makes a good medical student in relation to their patients and in their development as a physician would seem just as appropriate.
Posted by: george | Mar 18, 2008 3:26:11 PM
First a wall, isn’t it that the “personality” is one of the essential characteristics that medical schools look for in a prospective medical student? Are these students masters of disguise? I think it is the discipline that these students are lacking from an early age. And although they may get away with it in a hospital setting, it may heart them greatly later if they ever work in a private clinic. No-discipline is a curable “disease” and good attitude is a reflection of a healthy mind.
Posted by: MSA | Mar 18, 2008 3:37:45 PM
First a wall? Huh?
Posted by: Blarg | Mar 18, 2008 3:48:51 PM
another one: pretending you know something when you don't. this includes saying everything you can remember (or think you can remember) on a topic instead of responding to a specific question. it not only wastes supervisor's time, it expresses contempt for supervisor (you must think supervisor is stupid if they're fooled by your tactic). you'd be surprised how acceptable "I don't know" is as an answer, although it's understandable that you wouldn't want to over-use it. it's a variant of not lying to yourself or your teachers.
Posted by: anne | Mar 18, 2008 4:30:09 PM
first of all haha
Posted by: beep | Mar 18, 2008 4:32:04 PM
What makes a bad Medical Student....? Well right now I have one that is one pain in the ash... First day of the rotation he would not stop complaining on hoy much his past attending made him work and that on top of that he would not teach him one thing. So after 3 days of his whinning I decided to do a little ward teaching (w/o knowing he had failed step 1 four times... I mean, how the HELL can you fail 4 times????) Anywho, he would not know the answer to any of my questions. He even argued to me (In front of a patient yellow as a bannana) saying that none of the Hepatitis could cause that clinical picture. At the end of rounds, there he was sweating like a pig. So he decides to take a swing at me by asking me the mode of action of plavix (Like he is going to get me with that one) The thing is that he went complaining to the director because I was "harrassing" him and I ended up in the bottom of the pit with the snakes. If you want to be a real medical student, dont complain and, if youre third year, dont try to act like you know more than us. Learn to take it like an adult and learn from your mistakes. This MS3 Im talking about is now right there with Judas... I can see him writting BS in a PN and I wont say a word just to see him get nailed by the attending and the chief against the wall.
Posted by: J.P | Mar 18, 2008 5:53:38 PM
Want to know what irks me about med students and physicians? It's the "hollier than thou" attitude with absolutely no sense of humor. I see nursing students like this as well. Lighten up folks, even a little bit of humor makes the pt's more at ease with you and more willing to give you the information you need to make a faster diagnosis. Personalizing their care with an "I'm human just like you" attitude can keep you in business for a long time with returning pt's who's willing to refer you to their friends/family members b/c they're comfortable with you poking and probing at them.
Posted by: Nicole | Mar 18, 2008 6:36:37 PM
never, never answer a question from an attending directed to a resident. especially, one that the resident could not answer or was incorrect.
Posted by: | Mar 18, 2008 7:03:07 PM
Just shut up and do the work necessary. This is not about you or your aspirations or who you can suck up to. This is about the patient who is sick and/or dying. Keep that in mind and be respectful.
Posted by: RobertPaulson | Mar 18, 2008 8:07:22 PM
So let me get this straight, I should hang around for that add-on case that will go "soon" and pretend to be interested in pretending that I can see something. Oh yea, and I'll try not to ask any questions.
The medical student's job is to take care of their patients and learn, not impress the residents
Posted by: CD | Mar 18, 2008 8:30:09 PM
I've seen bad medical students: ones that skip days, disappear during the day (conveniently when times are busy), leave extra work for other students, and do a half-assed job with handling the needs of the patient. I think that kind of stuff that can only go on for so long until someone calls you out on it. Sooner or later you'll run into someone who knows "the drill" and will shape you accordingly.
But the real thing that annoys me is attitude. You can be a great student and be committed & intelligent, but if you walk around with a dumpy look on your face acting like you know everything, then no one will like you. This is something I see all the time. People tend to put up "fronts" where they look down at other students. Guys, this attitude will carry on to your residency. You think someone wants to work with an arrogant, bland, self-loving narcissist?
Cheer up, try to learn, learn how to take a joke, be a good team player, and act like a doctor that you would want to have if you had a serious ailment like our patients. Karma has a funny way of going around.
Posted by: KC | Mar 18, 2008 10:01:32 PM
Every student learns the hard way what to do and what not to do. It is a right of passage and something that provides us endless stories to tell our children and future physicians. What's important is that you are honest with those around you and honest with yourself. Actions always speak louder than words. If you don't like your rotation and you try to lie, they will know. Rather find something in the rotation that you do like, an area you can gain something from and express your liking of that. Then find a way to be helpful, even if it is only in that one area. They will respect you more. If I ever screwed up more than anything it was letting the little things get to me and withdrawing. Stay active, stay busy, stay humble and stay available.
Posted by: KG | Mar 18, 2008 10:05:16 PM
If you need medical students to write notes then you're not doing your job as a resident. As a resident I always keep in mind how I felt as a medical student. So long as the students are around for rounds and participate until about 2-3 pm (when not on call) I was content with letting them go home, study and enjoy life before starting their residency. If you are disappointed in your students then chances are they just don't want to be around you. Quit pointing the finger and maybe try evaluating yourself.
Posted by: scott | Mar 18, 2008 10:12:59 PM
To be a "good student" the biggest thing is to try to "own your patients." Figure out what needs to be done for them - without being told - and go do it or make sure it gets done. I could go on and on for hours about the particular things I found out through trial and error were valued and demanded by the residents and attendings who trained me, but fundamentally what they all like to see is you doing as much of what needs to be done for each patient as you can handle.
Posted by: JTO | Mar 19, 2008 4:43:28 AM
I think you may be right in terms of "playing the game" as to what makes a "bad medical student". In my opinion what makes a bad medical student can be found in the definitions of the two words medical and student as in a student of medicine. Imagine how much more could be learned by residents and students if everyone wasn't so caught up in the evaluation game and attendings didn't have such huge egos that they felt threatened by discussion.
PGY-1
Posted by: Tom H. | Mar 19, 2008 5:53:25 AM
I hope the residents and attendings still remember how it felt like to be a med student. Being at the bottom of the food chain where no one tells you what's going on yet you're expected to catch up with everyone else is not exactly an easy thing. On top of that you're changing rotations every 6 weeks and have to be very adaptable to the new environments or be doomed. Amidst all these craziness, we have to study for our shelf at the end of the rotation, keep up with the pimping and try to be on our toes all the time so that we would not be perceived as "lazy". It is sad to see how many "smart" students who know how to bend their way round with things getting high honors yet those quieter but extremely hardworking ones end up with a good or excellent. Med school is stressful enough. Sure most of the training is quite necessary to be competent doctors. All I can ask is for the residents and attendings to remember how it was like and evaluate us accordingly.
Posted by: CS | Mar 19, 2008 10:27:32 AM
"Good Med Student": #1 Focus and be dedicated. Learn as much from your experiences with your professors, residents, books, etc.. Be competitive with yourself, challenge yourself!! Let your patient know you care by simply giving caring eye contact, smooth tone of voice & reasonably take your time with them and LISTEN.....#2 Learn from negative experiences, ACCEPT and LEARN from your errors, THANK those who are there to correct you..#3 JUST DO YOUR JOB "CARE"......................Be Good
Posted by: munequitareyes | Mar 19, 2008 10:35:26 AM
What an interesting article - thank you. I am a final year student in South Africa, and we never have a problem being told when we are bad students. Our seniors (interns, registrars and consultants) are never scared to tell us to our face (often infront of many people) that we ought to know something or strip us down for neglecting to do something/doing something wrong. So its quite easy to be a good student, because if you don't, you will be left feeling very embarrassed!
Posted by: zahnne | Mar 19, 2008 11:20:03 AM
For those quiet but hardworking ones: participate! No one will know how hard you work and how much you care, unless you let them know.
Posted by: V | Mar 19, 2008 11:37:40 AM
I think one of the CLEAREST things that makes a bad student is not learning to say three easy words:
I DONT KNOW.
I detest, and many times the case is such for residents, teachers, interns... that a student thinks any response to try and look good is good enough. sometimes they're lucky enough to get the correct answer so they think they look good and-know-it-all but deep down it was a lucky strike. and it keeps the theacher (resident, medic, whatever) from giving a thorough explanation to the other students because he'll think everyone knows then.
Posted by: andreji | Mar 19, 2008 11:53:29 AM
And i will echo "Ja" in his/her comment:
---Bad students:
Copy on exams.
Use old exams to study for class
Don't read and think they know everything. ---
Unfortunately, I go to class with too many of these examples.
Posted by: andreji | Mar 19, 2008 11:55:30 AM
Hi. Interesting article. I'm a psych resident and I do call & teaching with many med students. I've also worked with them on the wards. I have to agree that attitude is the most important thing that I look for when evaluating students. Students may not be planning on a career in psych, but at least show that you're interested in learning the core skills and getting the most out of your rotation. Other key traits include 1) honesty, 2) initiative and 3) knowing your limits. Most students (at least at my med school) are quite good. From my experience, you really have to be reckless and irresponsible to be labeled as "bad".
Posted by: Daniel | Mar 19, 2008 12:02:11 PM
this is agood title and good point.but the author forgets other criteria of bad medical student,e.g. reading from old exams or from illustrations o0r "poor papers" and not from textbooks or well known books.i agree with the author about "asking questions to residents for testing and not for knowledge.
Posted by: Hieder A`ala | Mar 19, 2008 12:40:28 PM
Hello everyone,
This is a very interesting artice, and I have learned a lot from all of the comments as well. I am a future nursing student, so I was just wondering if any one had any advice for learning the absolute most from the program and becoming a competent, caring RN?
Posted by: Roitissa | Mar 19, 2008 12:58:51 PM
another bad'n: the trash talker. NEVER degrade your fellow students in a snarky manner in front of your residents for monkey's sake!!
Posted by: brittany | Mar 19, 2008 1:15:20 PM
comments from 'jp' just opened my eyes on how bad a med student can be. i am a final year student and i have a fellow student in my group whom I hardly see during tutorials or lectures, but when he did pop up once in a while he's the most 'know-it-all' person among us. it's not like he exactly knows everything, most of the answers he gave seemed like lucky guesses but then what irks me the most is his arrogant personality. i agreed with some comments that personality is everything. honesty is also important.
Posted by: reina sofia | Mar 19, 2008 1:26:52 PM
Interesting article! I am not a med student, but a psy.d. student with a son who has a peanut allergy. I have to say I generally dont have probs with Dr.'s, med students at all EXCEPT when they dont clean their hands and/or stethescopes! YUCK! I always ask and could care less if they have a problem doing it...no one has though, luckily!
Posted by: Psy.Diva | Mar 19, 2008 1:44:36 PM
hey guys, im a med student in South Africa. I think the worse thing to do, is to bunk ( absent) unnecesarily. this shows pure lack of intrest and also does nt explain the fact as to why you are at the med-school at the first plce. i must say our system is very cruel, you get embarrased by consultants ( attendings) very badly infront of everybody. and they give nusty comments and its always upto you as to what you make out of it.
Trick is : to remain calm and make the best opportunity you have been granted to become a DOCTOR.
Thank you.
Posted by: Nkosi | Mar 19, 2008 1:58:10 PM
I wish i'd read this earlier in my clerkship. ;-)
Posted by: Tep | Mar 19, 2008 3:17:49 PM
Great topic. As a family medicine resident, the best medical students I have had were not necessarily the most knowledgeable, but genuinely interested, curious, and dedicated. I don't necessarily care if the students have no intention of picking fam med as a specialty. However, for the time they are spending with us, they need to at least act interested in what's going on. I absolutely love to teach students and will take any opportunity to do, but I won't teach to a brick wall or someone who is trying to come up with any possible way to get out early. I'm not going to say anything publicly to embarrass anyone, but trust me, we residents notice!! My attitude going through my clerkships as a student was that I wanted to take whatever learning points out of each rotation no matter how much or little I cared about going into the specialty. You never know when that bit of knowledge will come in handy for whatever you do. So to all you students trying to make it through your clinical years, I know it gets tough (I was right there just a couple of years ago) but as long as you show up on time, act interested, be courteous and helpful, ask questions, and read up on what you are asked to, your residents will love you!!! Best of luck!
Posted by: mehul | Mar 19, 2008 4:22:31 PM
hi guys. I am in my internship year, i am from colombia, and i work here in a awsome hospital, it's so academic. But i tell you... here doctors, i mean.. attendings, students, and everybody work with respect, pls don't forget nobody have why talk in a bad way for you... u deserve respect, just because.. you are a person!
But off course if u don't want come a doctor, just let it go... and use your life to make u happy!
Posted by: Lily M.D. | Mar 19, 2008 5:35:09 PM
There is not one thing you said that I do not agree with. I think it is hard for medical students (I know it is for me) to draw the line between enthusiasm and arrogance. I always ask questions and hope I do not "reverse pimp" anyone. Despite saying this I think asking questions is so important because doctors are scientists. Asking questions is the basis of the scientific method. This goes to the essence of what it is to be a teacher as well. It also goes to the esssence of the biopsychosocial model of medicine (and as a result to the psyche of patients).
Posted by: Varun | Mar 19, 2008 6:42:26 PM
i'm a 3rd yr med student frm malaysia and i wanna say that the rules apply everywhere! it's only my 2nd week in the wards and every day i hear the same thing: be interested, hardworking, humble and caring. i do get discouraged when i can't answer questions while my colleagues can, but i have also seen know-it-alls get a good sounding off from consultants so i guess it's a matter of knowing your limits!
however, i'm not sure where to draw the line between being hardworking and plain irritating when it comes to spending time at the wards. when does it stop being enthusiasm and start becoming an annoyance to the staff?
Posted by: lishun | Mar 19, 2008 8:08:46 PM
this article belive it or not is really helpful for me because i am satrting medical school but when i get to be in residency i will remember this tips and when a resident tells me how good i am i`ll worry and when he tells me that i bad i wouldn`t worry that much
thank you for this i really needed something like this
Posted by: maria | Mar 19, 2008 9:34:47 PM
I think is all about the attitude :)
Posted by: Dulce | Mar 19, 2008 11:47:29 PM
i agree with ja and andreji. so many students don't read and think they know everything. but i have to contradict you in something, ja:) i think that being competitive is a good thing for a student. not to competitive, but still...
Posted by: cri | Mar 20, 2008 12:27:06 AM
Hi!,
i hope that every person that is reading this entry realizes that maybe these tips Anna is talking about aren´t quite all it, i mean.. there are a lot more things we can do to be better Medical-Students. and that instead of looking so much at the Bad side of them... we should just try NOT to become one and get back to our readings and for what´s more imoportant... lear how to use that information the best way!!.
Luck for everyone,
Oscar M.
Posted by: Oscar Maitas | Mar 20, 2008 1:44:52 AM
The idea that a "good" medical student would be one who APPEARS to be interested, willing etc. is preposterous. I could not care less what the resident thinks of my attitude. Perception, especially from someone who has only seen me for a couple of days, is deceiving.
Posted by: Amanda | Mar 20, 2008 2:57:59 AM
IT's true...sometimes i always as my doctor about any question that i does not understand when i read book.But they always reply to check or read it back...
Posted by: vicky | Mar 20, 2008 6:51:36 AM
Hi, I think you are right about the observations that you make,
but it is frustating, and impossible not to feel as a bad medical student, when you are in rounds and you don't know the answer,
Posted by: Humberto Cruz | Mar 20, 2008 7:26:51 AM
Everybody says the best answer if you don't know, is "i don't know". But sometimes you feel awful because residents and even interns are expecting too much of you. It's almost impossible not to feel like a bad student, and it's even worse if doctors ask you in the middle of a round.
Posted by: Olenka | Mar 20, 2008 7:48:25 AM
pertinent comments. Will go a long way to draw personal attention to poor attitudes ignored. On my part, a good medical student is that who admits not knowing enough, always willing and ready to learn. if your best is just 50%, then yu are ok by your standards. On the contrary,if 50% is your average, then you are a bad medical student by your standards.
Posted by: chobufo MD | Mar 20, 2008 8:04:34 AM
Hi guys,
This is another tip from a patient about good work habits. I spoke to a charming elderly COPD lady who had to be anaesthetised in the past. Unfortunately, in the process of endotracheal intubation, her vocal cords were damaged and she lost her voice. Now, her voice is hoarse and it's an effort to have normal conversations.
But the saddest thing is that nobody apologised or explained what had happened once she was conscious.
She said when doctors make mistakes, most patients do not mind if they have an explanation and an apology, and as long as they are convinced that the doctors have made a responsible decision, and have tried their best.
I am uncertain as to how true that is. Different people have different learning experiences, and different work environment. Whether you would adopt the attitude recommended by the lady is entirely up to you and your past experieces and learning.
However, I will, for myself adopt it, as it seems like a sensible piece of advice.
Cheers,
Naushin
Posted by: Naushin | Mar 20, 2008 8:51:21 AM
This article sure is educative,
i must say that i agree with positive attitudes such as interest and working hard as some of the tools to becoming better medical students.needless to say that the mind cannot do with perfection,the things it does not like...
Posted by: eric | Mar 20, 2008 9:31:08 AM
Hi everyone! I'm a final year medical student from Scotland. Well, I think sometimes it's rather difficult to decide when to admit to your supervisors saying 'I don't know'. There were consultants, in the hospital I attached to, who absolutely hate students saying 'I don't know' to their questions. I supposed it's just the matter of trying to respond to their questions and showing them that you're interested in learning - and also, that you're thinking! Don't make up facts though...ahahah
Posted by: YH | Mar 20, 2008 10:17:02 AM
bad med student= bad profs and bad resident
so kiss my ass
Posted by: cram | Mar 20, 2008 11:58:44 AM
hello!
i'm from southeast asia.
i'm an intern (5th year) with only a month left. i wish could've read this article in my 3rd year, or even a few months back.
in my hospital, a 4th year medical student's job, aside from knowing your patients, is to order food for all residents and interns during duty, answer the phone (phone deck), measure urine output of post-op patients (and dispose of them), text or call your resident if a patient for OR is on the OR table, doing your resident's census, reading skin tests, accompanying patients for CT, MRI, and other procedures. it was difficult adjusting to at first, after expecting so much in 3 years of med school.
it took a while adjusting to hospital work. but one thing i learned is to treat your residents with immense respect and accept your role as a subordinate while in the hospital... and be a friend to them when outside.
Posted by: jpm | Mar 20, 2008 12:59:24 PM
Let's not forget the "book carriers", the externs who carry heavy textbooks everywhere with them. Put that thing away and get dirty.
And maybe the most important thing is to be a good presenter. You have to be able to present what you know and what you can to the resident. If not, it’ll be like those oral exams where you know the answer but just can’t put it into words.
Posted by: Ali | Mar 20, 2008 2:03:03 PM
bad meds students means a hard life in medicine..when they (interns, nurses etc) know its hard to get any chance at doing procedures and geting info extra info..the best thg is u'll gonna be the last person to know bout anythg..
Posted by: A.N.I. | Mar 20, 2008 4:35:46 PM
I agree that Not knowing answers does not make you a bad medical students, but attitudes counts a lot. Good luck for all :)
Posted by: SHL | Mar 20, 2008 5:46:31 PM
I've seen some comments that attitude is everything... From a resident's perspective, part of having a good attitude involves actually learning the material. By the end of the rotation, we want to see that you have learned a great deal and are comfortable doing a thorough assessment, and making a differential diagnosis and plan for your patients. But we also want to see that you know the limits of your knowledge and always interested in learning more! As people have said, do not give off the impression that you know everything already.
Posted by: Daniel | Mar 20, 2008 6:22:08 PM
hello,
i'm a final yr medical student frm malaysia.can't agree more with this article. when i first started my clinical yrs, i thought i would flunk coz my pre clinical years weren't that great.how i survived this far? attitude. yup. the passion i have for a career in this field helps me in the most traumatic times and frm this passion i develop the attitude needed for my 'survival'.some knows-it-all students do score in written paper but are plain irritating for other students, residents and patients as well since they only practice what's in the book but their human skills are lacking and their attitude are poor (skipping classes for no obvious reason 3 days in a row....what do you call that if its not a bad medical student?!)
all the best to medical students...
and to residents, interns and nurses etc. .....do hang on with us =)
Posted by: FRH | Mar 21, 2008 2:16:58 AM
I think the students posting from South Africa are missing the point of the topic here. You think its good that you get berated for not knowing something on rounds? If you think everything you need for being a good medical student can just be found in the books your sadly mistaken. It goes without saying that the clinical part of medical school is a vital part of our education and making mistakes is expected, I mean its how we learn. Having residents that chew your head off and embarass you in public is a good way towards making someone a bad medical student.
Posted by: graft | Mar 21, 2008 2:37:47 AM
Hi, Im a 3rd year med stud from Malaysia.
I certainly agree with most points the authors and commentors have brought up.
Wont comment on what mkes a bad med stud, but i can certainly say that a good med student is also humble, empathatic and respectful of their patients.
While we 'pretend' to be doctors, patients are sick for real. We should be grateful with every information, permission for examination and procedures the patient consent to. How many people would give up their rectums and veins to be poked at!
A good student , I think is one who can appreciate these hardship the patient goes through and be mindful everytime we poke a needle, palpate someones breasts and so on... And not just treat patients like some experimental lab rat for our own gains.
Without patients, we will never learn.
My two cents.
Posted by: Zaim | Mar 21, 2008 5:49:32 AM
What an interesting subject to talk about!
I want to add that knowing what it means to be a bad medical student is not synonymous to being a good one, but acting on areas you've failed can bring out the best!
Posted by: Mesi Matthew | Mar 21, 2008 7:30:11 AM
it is great article,,we need more articles like that which help us..thank you
Posted by: fuad | Mar 21, 2008 7:32:33 AM
i m a 2nd year med student from malaysia. as wat the people are practicing at my place(or maybe all over the world), doctors are the group of people who are standing next to God. They need docs anywhere anytime just like how they need God's attention. for my point of view, only those people with good personalities are suitable for this profession. to all the 'bad' med students out there, it is still not too late to make a difference. Step on your feet and rectify it before everything is over. ^^
Posted by: Caduceus | Mar 21, 2008 8:24:44 AM
hi, i am 5th year medicine student from Colombia, and i am going to start my complete time practices at the hospital and i feel a little scare of assume such responsability, because i don´t feel prepared. Can some of you give any advise?
Posted by: yuly | Mar 21, 2008 5:03:31 PM
I'm a resident of General Surgery and I work with a lot of medstudents 5th and 6th year ( In Brazil we have 6 years of medschool). In some rotations the studentes are essential for the succes of the team, I swear! It's impossible for the resident to know everything about each patient, but it's quite easier for the student, that have just 2 or 3 to know about (vitals, last exams, soccer team, name of child ...:) ) . To be a good medstudent just do your job, look interested, ask than if they need help, even if you know they don't. Do not leave before 5 pm, wake up early, study a little bit, change the dressings before rounds, do not lie about auscultation. Acting like this, you will probably have the opportunity to do cool procedures such as central lines, chest tubes, thoracocentesis, etc... Go ahead. Never stop dreaming.. Keep working
Posted by: Dadson Sales, MD | Mar 21, 2008 5:17:26 PM
above all wat i feel is one that seperates good 4m bad medico/interns/residents is their attitude and service motiv towards their patients. one should always strive hard to just not mechanically treat (which i think any paramed can do using internet today) but give our best into it by best i mean overall care wit great humbleness n humanity and to achive thus shall be the goal of everyone
Posted by: vinay k bangalore india | Mar 21, 2008 10:12:27 PM
I go to a medical school where cheating is the norm. I know a 3rd of 6 year medical student who thought a reticulocyte was a parasitic infection. I have been somewhat outcasted by some students just because I supposedly did not share the answers to a physiology quiz from them. So "what makes a bad student?"..It is definetly students who cheat, obtain fake doctors notes to get out of class, and most importantly, do not seem to be interested or care.
Posted by: | Mar 22, 2008 4:17:12 AM
i empathise with the previous poster. i'm from Malaysia but am currently studying abroad and the students from MY group are totally the same! They skip class, don't study for class when they ARE in class, expect me to write their names in the attendance sheets in lectures and would do ANYTHING (cheat, postpone exams, etc) to get perfect marks in exam! :(
Us Russian medical graduates have a bad name in Malaysia due to these type of students but unfortunately, these students are the majority here due to the somewhat low entrance requirements and the low tuition fees as well...
Posted by: delirioustk | Mar 22, 2008 11:12:39 AM
I'd say the worst quality for a medical student to have would be a hatred of science. This type usually wants to be a doctor for the status, though occasionally to help people. What they don't think about is that people's lives are at risk, and if you aren't a scientist at heart, you are practicing BAD MEDICINE.
Posted by: Steve | Mar 22, 2008 1:46:31 PM
Im a Clinical Nurse in General and Urology at a Pediatric Hospital in Theatre in Australia to me a good student walks in and introduces themself around (team work) -mannners :-( - asks questions :-), checks what operations are on that list and look them up if you dont know what it is. We all understand it is a very nerve racking time. Rude is the student's who stand and chat about social issues :-( ( I will ask you to leave in front of the consultants who will support me). Want to get on the good side of a consultant check the night before on the theatre list what cases are on. I know time is short but take the time and pre read before you walk in, the consultants I work with will always ask anatomy question and general questions. They will help you if you show you are willing to put in the time and they will teach you happily. Take notes so you can check things later after clinics if you are not sure what somthing was then ask more questions r/t to that:-)
Part of my role is to evaluate registrars in my speciality in our theatre so Remember you are going to be part of a team treat other how you want to be treated dont follow bad examples Cheers :-)
Posted by: Coza | Mar 22, 2008 7:50:14 PM
Dear Anna,
Remember how you were as a student in Med School. Try not to focus or concentrate too much on bad medical students... Why don´t you try this topic for a chance: Bad medical teaching, careless medical teaching (residents work beyond human nature and ussually against the clock - why dont attendings, such as yourself, donate some of their precious time on what they once promised: "To teach the art of medicine..."), etc. Thanks for your time.
Posted by: Diego | Mar 23, 2008 10:31:44 AM
Great list! Thanks, Anna. I'm from South Africa, but generally get along well with registrars (I think that's about equivalent to residents over there). It makes a huge difference to your experience of a rotation. You really don't have to suck up - all you really have to do is show up, be friendly, and do what's expected of you. I find that already goes a long way to their getting a good impression of you.
Posted by: | Mar 23, 2008 12:47:49 PM
My idea of the number 1 criteria for a bad medical student is : Eternal Suck up's. Always greeting the superiors and asking if they slept well, asking if they need coffee or if they need help filling out patient histories.Most of the time in my experience, they don't even know squat 'cause they didn't prepare, they just steal other students whispered musings and say it out loud so it looks like it was their idea. Although i'm extremely pleased when i whisper something really off the point and they scream it out loud and end up looking stupid.
Posted by: Brooke | Mar 23, 2008 2:08:20 PM
I'm glad everyone here is such an expert!!! I'm sure it was real long time since you were all medical students! This is what sucks about medicine...all this crap. "my place beacuse I'm a resident/reg..." and "your place as a medical student"...aren't we all in it together??? Get over yourselves...we all start as students....
Posted by: natalie | Mar 23, 2008 4:49:55 PM
I am not in the US system of medical education but from all these comments,I gather that all medical students are probably the same.My idea of a bad student is one who always waits for someone to find an interesting case and then "poach" it by trying to impress the supervisors with what they have discovered even when they know they did absolutely nothing!!Then there are those who forge EVERYTHING because they skip everyday!!
sometimes I wonder where the future of Medicine really is!!
Posted by: chacha | Mar 24, 2008 8:00:40 AM
many tnx for the advices amd comments! it will really help us in
facing the senior clerkship!!!!!!
Posted by: vinny pups | Mar 24, 2008 9:13:21 PM
Long thread,guess there are a lot of bad medical students!
Posted by: Jake | Mar 25, 2008 3:08:21 PM
well, first of all, the first time you put your feet in the hospital, it's an amazing and frightening experience. before that, you were studing a lot in a quiet place with your huge science book, but now, you have to prove everything you know, in a very crowed place, in a very difficult schedule, without eating or sleeping. no matter if you were and excellent student at the classroom, now you are in a hospital, the place where you become a real doctor, so, let's have fun!, learn a lot from your patients, read every day about what you're already doing, find a secret place in the hospital for you, one place for rest, for study, and in a very hard situation, for crying, because always, you need to remember that before you were a med student, you are HUMAN. anyway, if you want to be a great student, always do your best and rectify all your mistakes, nice article.
Posted by: A. Lara O.M.S. | Mar 25, 2008 9:20:15 PM
Dadson and A. lara your comments are very helpfull for me, thanks for sharing your experience!! Blesses
Posted by: yuly | Mar 26, 2008 4:00:31 PM
hi everyone,
im doing my internship in NEPAL n all ur opinions r really helpful.my personal opinion abt a bad med.student is when one trys to showoff(lik answering ques. when it was ment for someone else,behaving as if he/she is always rite,AND MOST OF ALL not lettin others to hav a turn....)coz i feel there shouldb a feeling of teamwork among med. students to becom a better doctor in future.wat do u think?????????
Posted by: Sakura | Mar 27, 2008 1:29:10 AM
Ditto, Sakura, student from Nepal.
I get irritated too. I see alot of 'individualistic' behaviors here. Didnt think itd be the same elsewhere.
Students who 'offer' help in classes are not helping at all. Like one of my proffesors said, its insulting to the student's intelligence.
Posted by: Zaim | Mar 27, 2008 2:01:22 AM
Interesting topic. In defence of the med students being one is filled with hard work and frustration. One does face a lot of challenges for the first time and you have to learn to be a wizard at interpersonal relationships for ideal team work. Most of us do learn this one way or other and as in my case mostly by gettin my hands burnt.In this dog eat dog world some amount of sucking up, reverse pimping and showing off does go on.I did my residency in a different system in india. Most residents and consultants are willing to correct your mistakes without much hue and cry.Some do blow their top, but hell this is not a perfect world.Well i guess hardwork,honesty,concern for your patients and willingness to accept and correct your mistakes does get you in to good books of most people.
Posted by: math | Mar 27, 2008 5:28:10 AM
The WORST Medicine student I ever had actually made things up. What was the patient's I&O? "1200 cc". When was the last BM? "Yesterday". When in fact the patient was in renal failure and hadn't had a BM for 4 days!!The amazing thing was, he was the NICEST guy in the world. I had him later as an Medicine Intern - had not changed one bit! I had to see all of his patients and double check all labs, etc.
The proper answer would have been, "I'm sorry I don't have that information right now, but I'll find out and get right back to you." Then you should find out what information is needed on your patient for rounds and be prepared the next day.
I agree with Daniel, the psych resident (above), key traits include 1) honesty, 2) initiative and 3) knowing your limits.
Posted by: JK Resident | Mar 27, 2008 1:22:09 PM
Hi?I am medical student.Just thanka you for this article.A good medical student must have positive attitude and follow the principles of proffessional ethic.Good studies to all medical students
Posted by: Hagengimana Alfred | Mar 28, 2008 2:10:35 AM
Bad vs good medical students. In my opinion, u no need to be very smart as a medical student. Having enough knowledge to pass ur exam, at the same time build up some essential 'traits' to become a good doctor. Yes, i strongly agree that attitude makes the difference btw a good and bad medic student. i can see those irresponsible students in my class, and i feel dissapointed with them. Being irresponsible, is not only endanger patient's life but also make your colleagues feel burdened.
Posted by: miaw | Mar 28, 2008 4:47:38 AM
I ll tell you who i consider "bad medical students".
The ones who memorize hundreds of pages and yet dont understand the core mechanisms of the things they memorize.
The ones who, inspite of their efforts in learning every existing medical information, are not able to THINK properly.
So, to be brief, bad med students and bad would-be doctors are the ones who think medicine is all about memorizing books.
an important part of medicine is, of course, acquiring all the necessary knowledge, but the most important part of this great science is being able to think. simply that.
and, believe me, a large percentage of med students cannot think. they simply memorize.
Posted by: Bill | Mar 28, 2008 9:39:29 AM
Hi! I'm Mae, medstudent from Philippines. I guess most of us if not all, in the medical world, had become or may become a "bad medstudent" at one point. We may have not noticed it but others may have. We should act professionally and face the challenges ahead of us as medical doctors. We all are human and we all made mistakes. Deal with them or or let them be and get into your way of being a professional. I'm sure we all know how to handle one, its much more easier to handle than your regular cases in the hospital.
Posted by: | Mar 29, 2008 1:55:01 AM
hi, i'm fajar medical student frm Indonesia
I think all of our work start from heart.
Responbility is the key coz we must MANAGE human healthy
Posted by: fajar | Mar 30, 2008 1:44:52 AM
I think everybody is good until he's interested in the subject.You're what you think you're.we can't claim the victory without deep interest.Some students they don't fit as medical student because they prefer an other fields such art or sport.Our brain needs guidness, if you don't help it you will loose your interest....
by zakaria
Posted by: zakaria ali | Apr 1, 2008 9:01:14 AM
Great topic.
I believe in three things in this life.I believe that
1- my soul is my strenght.
2- my attitude is my power.
3- my word is my honest.
Posted by: Dhafer salem | Apr 1, 2008 10:15:13 AM
med school is perhaps the most challenging place one can ever hope to be,on top of this one has to dealwith the relentless rush to be the best.for me what makes a bad student is the unwillingness to admit ones mistakes,to learn from them,and to become better.so long as one admits his mistakes i dont think that being a know all,finding their way around corners is going to be a problem.as for cutting classes thats a different issue all together,if people take good classes students would come by themselves,whats the point in comming to clases onlyto doze off
Posted by: nishant sagar | Apr 2, 2008 4:55:42 AM
hi all..its malathe from sudan.. once u r involved in the medical field u should learn hw 2 share & hw 2 cooperate with each other,cuz its a team.. i believe that ethics r the base,Pts r not going 2 remember the answers or the no. of the Qs that u answered b4, they will only remember the nice way that u were dealing with them & hw did u treated them with respect as human being not like models...!!!
EVERY 1 CAN GET KNOWLEDGE BUT NOT ALL OF THEM CAN GET ETHICS....
Posted by: malathe | Apr 3, 2008 1:40:51 PM
any tips on how 2 deal with a "know-it-all" colleague who tries 2 put u down in front of reg's and consultants jst 2 show of what a smart-a** she is?
Posted by: | Apr 4, 2008 4:51:41 AM
easy to say someone is a badmedical student but i think the more we analyseourselvesthe more we wwwould see that at one point a resident has seen us as a bad medstudent. in cameroon where i am, there have been moments when i personally know i am a bad medstudent and at other times an excellent one. but being absent for long or every 2days definitely leads u to bad student. attitudes are generally linked to personality and personality is usally difficult to change. we should understand bad medstudents and correct them accordinly. and dont forget the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Posted by: onewar | Apr 10, 2008 7:27:37 AM
The good ,the bad & even the urgly exist in everywhere or in anywhere( not only student but also...)
I simply agree with the munequitareyes' comment of 2008 march 19,to be a good medical student simply,thank you.
Posted by: Liang Chi Sheng | Apr 12, 2008 9:22:53 PM
What I learned in a surgery elective was to always try to anticipate what the team needed next, and jump to filling that need, even if you're wrong. I found that lesson carried over well to other rotations- does the resident need a referral form? Go find it. Did that dressing need tape on it? If it's not in your pocket, run and get some! I wish I had learned that lesson earlier.
Posted by: NYCChiquita | Apr 15, 2008 5:39:54 PM
Everyone seems to think ward rounds are of a great amount of use. I'm a medical student and can honestly say they're about the most useless thing I've ever done. For a start I can't hear anything. I'm so far back that you can't make out what people are saying. For a second I can't properly see anything as I need to be closer to do that, and to top it all off people generally ignore students most of the time. It ends up mostly being a race round the hospital in the wake of an army of doctors......Far better and more effective to find someone during the day and shadow them, or shadow whoever's on call, or even attend clinics. All in all I think I'm better rested arriving at 9 or 10 and getting stuck into doing something than going in for 8am ward rounds and being ignored. Gotto love the pimping questions. Actually the most iritating thing about pimping questions is they don't tend to ask much pathophysiology/biochemistry/microbiology/pharmacology - sure clincial questions are good but the underlying science is important too. Clinciians also need to remember that at the begining of a rotation you won't know much in terms of clinical protocols etc but you will, if you're memory is good, be right up there with the detail on the underlying science. I'm not sure whether my collegues would agree here but IMHO more science questions would be welcome.
Posted by: Iain | Apr 15, 2008 6:52:50 PM
great writings on how bad we are as a medical students! i know we don't really like to be that kind of
students, no one wants. though i know some of residents do that too.
the key is actually interaction between the residents and the students, good interaction. because if the residents care to the studnets, like to be helped and help the students (such as eager to answer the students' question about some cases), a few jokes in some conversations (yeah just a little conversation), i'm sure there are no bad medical students.
but actually i know there are some of my friends do this bad, and it's so disgusting and an embarassing behaviour as candidates of doctor. doctors are in a team and they're friends, they should help each other... right???
Posted by: kholisah nasution | Apr 16, 2008 2:45:22 PM
wow! i really saw a lot of me in some of these comments, it is not easy to realise you are doing something wrong unless someone points it out it is wrong. thanks guys for your comments.
just to comment about the 'i don't know' aspect as an answer, i go to a medical school where Drs and profs shout at you for saying that, they always encourage medical students to say anything even if it is wrong and then they will correct you and you learn from that. i think before you say 'i don't know', try answering the question and see how wrong you can be,i mean if everyone was always right, we would not have what they call a differential but only a defenetive diagnosis in medicine. attempting every question does not make you look like you know everything but it shows your desire and dedication to finding out the answer. how do you show interest into something when you say i don't know.
Posted by: enos | Apr 18, 2008 12:44:28 PM
can't agree more, attitude is the first thing matter,i have seen a few of my friends who always disappeared & skip class during student days turned out to be irresponsible colleague during residency :(
Posted by: aifaa | Apr 21, 2008 7:55:53 AM
i do agree with most of u on some points but i also believe that having a strong foundation in all the basic sciences is important...like knowing PDA is not the same as PTA
Posted by: Ayash | Apr 22, 2008 3:14:20 AM
